Ethanol free gas... Better for our cars?

[BavarianZHP]

I had an interesting discussion today about the ethanol/gas mixture we put into our beloved cars. I'm sure all of you realize that most of the "gasoline" we pump has an ethanol component (up to ~10%).

I hadn't put any thought into it, but apparently it can be very harmful to our engines. The more I researched, the more I got concerned... Even the manufacturers rallied against it, but what's really, really perplexing is that it DOESN'T seem harmful despite the research. Which puts my mind into a tailspin. We all use it!

Well, the government is pushing for E15 gas (15% ethanol levels) for the future but there's still gas stations that pump ethanol free gas...

http://www.pure-gas.org/

Any thoughts on this?

[Vas]

I go to a local gas station that has no ethanol in their gas. After a couple of fill-ups, I did notice a small increase in mpg.

[kayger12]

I would never put that shit in my tank if I had a choice, but in NJ it's all they're allowed to sell.

[ELCID86]

No doubt it's better to NOT have it. Unfuntunatly nothing near me except w/ Ethanol.

[BavarianZHP]

I'm going to run an experiment and start using ethanol free gas...

[johnrando]

No choice in Socal.

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[Hermes]

No choice in Socal.

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Yes we do, it's called race gas ;)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/bd00c834.jpg

[johnrando]

:) i'm not rich like you JP. I'm not even sure where the closest one is.

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[Hermes]

Hahaha, I've ran that stuff once ever. Funny thing is there must be a ridiculous markup on it because in the last 2.5 years I've never seen that station change the price on 100

Edit: just remembered, I've used it 3 times. Picture was taken when I ran Palomar Mtn years ago. More recently I used it twice in the E21.

The reason is that 100 combusts more completely than lower ratings and therefore is better to use when you go for a smog test in a car you're not sure will pass. I had to do it twice because despite having 100 in my tank my cat was dead so I still didn't pass. Second time (w/new cat) I blew basically 0's. Otherwise, there is no point in running it in a street car


I'm not even sure where the closest one is.

This is an old list, but some of these stations still have race gas
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142051

[3ZHP]

Since I've moved to middle Tennessee, I see Ethanol free gas in several places around town but still haven't tried it. I run only V-Power unless I'm traveling and can't find it. Most of the stations that carry the Ethanol Free are no name and I'm not sure if I'd trust them.

[mimalmo]

It's definitely better gas. More energy means better power & increased mileage.

Click below to find stations near you that carry ethanol-free gas.
http://pure-gas.org/

[JKO_ZHP]

Even though there's ethanol, if you pour some Techron in, will it negate the effects?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techron
Because it seems as though there is evidence to back up the statement that claims BMW along with other carmakers deem Techron to be a +.
I also heard that Chevron's gas made the cut for the top tier before Shell did?

[mimalmo]

Even though there's ethanol, if you pour some Techron in, will it negate the effects?


No. The ethanol contains less energy than the straight gas. Techron can't fix that. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means it attracts water. As good Techron is, it can't eliminate water. Techron is all about getting rid of engine deposits.

[brettbimmer]

No. The ethanol contains less energy than the straight gas. Techron can't fix that. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means it attracts water. As good Techron is, it can't eliminate water. Techron is all about getting rid of engine deposits.

This X2. In the marine industry, the addition of the E10 ethanol really created a mess as it was eating plastic components in the fuel systems (tanks, fuel lines, fittings, etc.), and gumming up the carburetors and other fuel systems, causing boats to need to have fuel tanks replaced, etc. The addition of the ethanol to fuel makes no sense to me as it really doesn't provide any added benefit that I am aware of.

[BimmerWill]

Less fuel for same amount of money! Only benefit is for the gas companies :)

sent from S4

[fredo]

Click below to find stations near you that carry ethanol-free gas.
http://pure-gas.org/

Nobody carries ethanol-free gas in Austin. :facepalm

[BavarianZHP]

The addition of Ethanol is only to subsidize the farmers and appease to greener/renewable resources. I've heard some guys getting +20% mpg gains from switching to E0 gas.

[LivesNearCostco]

Some of the boost guys run E85 because it can handle higher temps/compression without detonating. I guess they get much worse mileage but don't care because they can use more boost and get more power from it.

[mimalmo]

Nobody carries ethanol-free gas in Austin. :facepalm

Ask the guys that own old hot rods. They usually know where the good gas is at. Serious boat and motorcycle guys usually do too.



The addition of Ethanol is only to subsidize the farmers and appease to greener/renewable resources. I've heard some guys getting +20% mpg gains from switching to E0 gas.

I saw a huge difference when using ethanol-free premium versus the regular stuff.

[alexandre]

In Canada the big names sell ethanol free 91. I've definitely seen a difference in MPG from when I drive in the US for a while (1-2 MPG).


iP4S + TT2

[Vas]

Some of the boost guys run E85 because it can handle higher temps/compression without detonating. I guess they get much worse mileage but don't care because they can use more boost and get more power from it.

e85 plus boost man that is a combo.

And the majority of standalone ecu's have a flex sensor now so you can both us regular gas or e-85 and the ecu adjusts accordingly.

[derbo]

So I understand Ethanol has less energy stored per volume, but E85 tuned cars seems to make more power with turbos.... thats 85% Ethanol. It is higher octane than normal 100% gasoline but at the cost of less energy per volume. This means more power but much lower mpg. If I recall its like 30-33% less energy than 100% gasoline?

Anyways, Ethanol can make more power and I'm all for it since it is corn oil basically.


Can someone point me to a journal article or something similar that proves that ethanol is bad for an engine? I would imagine it cleans better than normal gasoline and shouldn't affect engine wear as much.

[derbo]

My only immediate thought is that rubber seals are "gasoline resistant" but not "ethanol resistant" and result is premature gasket wear.

[LivesNearCostco]

And ethanol attracts water, leading to more corrosion if your fuel system was intended for 100% gasoline. But more modern US cars, especially anything labeled flex-fuel, should be fine since they were designed in the 10% ethanol era.

[brettbimmer]

Can someone point me to a journal article or something similar that proves that ethanol is bad for an engine? I would imagine it cleans better than normal gasoline and shouldn't affect engine wear as much.

Not journal articles per-say, but two sites you may find interesting; first one even discusses a BMW Blog and MINI troubles with Ethanol. Reminds me of the "Cash-for-Clunkers" debacle.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

http://www.fuel-testers.com/contaminated_gas_reports.html

With these ethanol problems, maybe we should go back to running diesels on peanut oil as first designed by Rudolph Diesel.

[mimalmo]

So I understand Ethanol has less energy stored per volume, but E85 tuned cars seems to make more power with turbos.... thats 85% Ethanol. It is higher octane than normal 100% gasoline but at the cost of less energy per volume. This means more power but much lower mpg. If I recall its like 30-33% less energy than 100% gasoline?

Anyways, Ethanol can make more power and I'm all for it since it is corn oil basically.


Can someone point me to a journal article or something similar that proves that ethanol is bad for an engine? I would imagine it cleans better than normal gasoline and shouldn't affect engine wear as much.


We're burning food while people starve. Not good.

The energy resources it takes to grow the corn; water, fertilizer, harvest, transport, refining, etc are far beyond what we get out of it in energy. It's a losing game.

I grew up with a corn field next to our property. I've lived most of my life out in the country where we know corn & crops. Ethanol is the biggest boondoggle on taxpayers and our natural resources that I've seen in my 40+ years on this planet.

[derbo]

It's definitely better gas. More energy means better power & increased mileage.

Click below to find stations near you that carry ethanol-free gas.
http://pure-gas.org/



I like how everywhere within 500 miles does not have it. :X


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/hhtd1j3i1i3xeyc/Screenshot%202013-12-24%2000.26.47.PNG




But thanks on the information about Ethanol. I just know about it's HP performance ratings and its terrible energy per volume compared to pure gasoline. Unfortunately, I am stuck with E10 in my area..

[Dave1027]

The powers that be are shoving corn down our throats every any way they can.

[Jon D]

Less fuel for same amount of money! Only benefit is for the gas companies :) sent from S4

Nope it's the farmers. Artificial market for corn

[johnrando]

Why would there be an artificial market for porn? Oh, wait. What? Oh, CORN! There's an artificial market for CORN.

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[ELCID86]

Nope it's the farmers. Artificial market for corn

Yep.

[Hermes]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/hhtd1j3i1i3xeyc/Screenshot%202013-12-24%2000.26.47.PNG

This got me excited until I opened the page and realized that the station in SD is the one I posted the pic of 100 octane :(

[brewer90]

I hate ethanol. Not only do I get lower mileage but it screws up the carbs in my lawn equipment and motorcycles. The worst part is that I have no choice but to use it since there is no pure gas available in central Texas any longer.

This is a pretty damning Associated Press story on the unintended environmental consequences of ethanol. Long read but I found it interesting

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/secret-dirty-cost-obamas-green-power-push-1

[az3579]

This got me excited until I opened the page and realized that the station in SD is the one I posted the pic of 100 octane :(

There are only two stations in CT that sell ethanol-free gas, and yep, you guessed it: only octane levels well over what my car was designed for.

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[328ioc]

I believe a sonoco down the street from me just started stocking ethanol free. I'll check it out when I am back in Florida.

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[billyjack]

If you're in an area with a decent amount of boats you can usually find ethanol-free gas. Fishermen have been dealing with this crap for a while now. I run my lawn equipment on ethanol-free.

[BimmerWill]

If you're in an area with a decent amount of boats you can usually find ethanol-free gas. Fishermen have been dealing with this crap for a while now. I run my lawn equipment on ethanol-free.

Yeah I've got several in my area that keep non-ethanol. Unfortunately it always seems to be the hole in the wall joints that carry it though, I'm not sure how much I trust the gas from there.

sent from S4

[midlandtech]

I use ethanol free gas when I can get it. The Hyvee locally sells it in 91 octane. I will echo others sentiment in that I feel it's more detrimental that good. It promotes GMO usage and non traditional crop rotation. It also required a lot of water which drains our natural aquifers and promotes soil erosion. I can find 5 reasons to not use it for every one provided.

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[brewer90]

I just made a 750 mile round trip run from TX to OK to visit my family for Christmas. I rode my BMW R1200RT motorcycle which is fuel injected. I got 38.5 mpg on the way up with 10% ethanol gas. They have real gas up in OK so I filled up with that and returned 41.5 mpg on the way back to TX. That was with the cruise set on 80 mph and topping 100 mph quite often as I rolled on the gas to pass a bunch of semis. That is an 8% gain in fuel economy which is about double what the energy content difference is. I love corn on the cob but hate corn in the gas.

[terraphantm]

In theory, your ZHPs shouldn't have as much of an issue with varying levels of ethanol as some other cars. You guys all have wideband O2 sensors, so the DME always knows the AFRs, even at WOT. But even for the rest of us, the DMEs are usually smart enough to adapt after a few drive cycles. It's not terribly difficult to tune for the small difference either, just adjust the fuel constant by about 4% (and this is well within the range of the car's adaptions, so it should be okay without it).

Now obviously some people, myself included, have experienced improved mileage beyond the energy content difference - I can't adequately explain that. I'm going to experiment with retuning my DME slightly to see if the mileage at least becomes in line with that energy difference.

[bimmergofast]

Hate the stuff. Bad ag policy, bad energy policy, has the 'benefit' of being both corporate handout and special interest pandering at the same time. I go out of my way to get real gas, notice a difference in both mileage and performance. On e90 I feel more hesitation under load than with the good stuff-

butt dyno says fail.

[maliceM3]

I found this site very helpful but also quite depressing. The closest ethanol-free to me is about ~20 minutes away.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IN

[PirateZHP]

I found this site very helpful but also quite depressing. The closest ethanol-free to me is about ~20 minutes away.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IN

This website has a gas station listed that isn't even built yet. However, if it's correct, I'll have a sheetz (cheapest gas around) with 93 ethanol free! :-)

[ELCID86]

Anything near me is a marina :-(

[ELCID86]

I believe a sonoco down the street from me just started stocking ethanol free. I'll check it out when I am back in Florida.



Is Sunoco good gas? There is one near me that I've never used. They say its good: http://www.gosunoco.com/quality-fuels/our-fuels/

But I guess they are note top tier: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

[bimmergofast]

I found this site very helpful but also quite depressing. The closest ethanol-free to me is about ~20 minutes away.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=IN

Great find, didn't know about the pure-gas site. And they have an app!

Discovered a couple potential stops near me, which is exciting since my go-to gas station closed last year.

[3ZHP]

Some interesting reading on this subject

http://smarterfuelfuture.org/