Kling to your ZHPs kids...

[Fried_Chicken]

Because BMW has gone full retard:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/16/bmw-1-series-225i-active-tourer-spy-shots/

[mLuMaN83]

RIP BMW. You made many smiles along the way.

I'll be buying up old chassis Bimmers to hoard in a shed somewhere.

[Hermes]

Meh, they made if 10 years ago already

http://img.timeinc.net/time/2007/50_cars/pontiac_aztec.jpg

[JKO_ZHP]

BMW has lost its way.
I thought the new numbers - 4, 6, 8 - were supposed to be coupes? Way to make things even more confusing....

The only rumored bad-ass (super)car for the future is the M8, supposed to be BMW's way of saying they're still in the game. But seeing as how the big bean counter boss doesn't support that thought, that plan is sure to be scrapped sooner or later.

[mimalmo]

The BMW designers must like the Toyota Venza

http://image.trucktrend.com/f/multimedia/photogallery/163_1207_2013_toyota_venza_photo_gallery/42398958/2013-Toyota-Venza-left-side-view.jpg

http://vcdn.paultan.org/image/2013/12/bmw-225i-2-series-active-tourer-0001-630x338.jpg

[Avetiso]

I don't think it looks all that bad, I just don't see why it needs to exist. Who is this car supposed to appeal to? Don't we already have the X1?

[kayger12]

Great! I always wanted a bimmer that looked like a minivan!

:vomit

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[ELCID86]

My two exact thoughts--Aztec and Venza.

[johnrando]

My first thought was ewwww, then I saw on the pic site, "download" this as wallpaper. I threw up in my mouth a little. Who would want that as a wallpaper? :)

[alexandre]

Looks like a B-class competitor. But yeah, what's up with the brand dissolution ?

[brettbimmer]

Oh man...this new 1 Series GT (Garbage Truck?) looks awful! This from the owner of the never popular in the USA 318ti!! I would rather have a VW GTI, Mazdaspeed3, Sti,...or perhaps even the Benz A-Class. "Frumptastic" comes to mind as a descriptive word for this new beast.

[kayger12]

"Frumptastic" comes to mind as a descriptive word for this new beast.

Love it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[echo46]

IMHO, the halcyon days of BMW and the true driving machine were from the mid 80s to 2006 (e30 to e46). Ever since 2006, I have watched the soul of these spirited road machines slip into the netherworld. While the e30 is perfect in so many ways, the e46 is the sport's car by which so many others are measured. I know it's not a Porsche, but in my twisted world, dare I say I like it better? Words elude me but there is just something about the BMW e46 platform.

[Hermes]

^although I agree with most of that, I believe E9/E10 owners will say that their cars set the plan in motion for what came later. If it wasn't for the 2002/ti/tii/turbo and the 3.0CS/CSi/CSL the brand would probably not even exist anymore

[echo46]

True, the e9/10 and 2002 were certainly forces but as I said, in my opinion, they lacked the road feel, handling and power of the later e30, e36 and e46. Indeed, 2002 was full up with the BMW soul that I am watching disappear before my very eyes.

[Hermes]

Agreed, the 2002 does not have the road feel or power that the later cars do. The E9 CSL was the exception of that time period. A big and light car, especially when modified with later parts

This one is actually a 3.8CSL and weighs around as much (or less) than my E21

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/jhermes/null-7.jpg

[echo46]

Whoa, very cool.

[zhpnsnv]

BMW lost its way a long time ago. I remember many people being horrified at the idea of an x5 sports "activity" vehicle. Now we accept it.

[danewilson77]

What did the e30 guys say when the e36 came out? Then the e46.

Things change.

It's not a toy, it's a Droid > Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[JKO_ZHP]

What did the e30 guys say when the e36 came out? Then the e46.

Things change.

It's not a toy, it's a Droid > Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

What bugs me the most is that it's FWD.

http://www.porscheboost.com/images/imported/2012/11/1802000prefrogx146-1.jpg

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/191gd11ckg583jpg/ku-xlarge.jpg

http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/imported/2011/07/754d1149693523whywedonthavefrontwheeldri-1.jpg

Mini's are FWD. BMW's are RWD. For BMW to slip on over to making FWD is simply to make more money, because it costs less to make.

This tells me the bean counter calling the shots is after money, not producing the ultimate driving machine.

[LivesNearCostco]

If BMW is going to continue to chase big unit numbers, it needs another sub-brand like Mini or Rolls Royce to avoid brand dilution. Toyota has Lexus & Scion. GM has Chevy (performance or all-American), Buick (China), Cadillac (luxury) and GMC (trucks/SUVs). When Daimler bought Chrysler, that didn't work out too well, but they still have Smart cars and a few truck brands.

Perhaps the king of this is VW. Not only do they have Volkswagon, Audi and Porsche in their stable, but also Bentley, Skoda, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ducatti and Scania. Maybe that's too many brands, but if GM has 4 and VW has 7 (for cars) I think BMW needs more than 3, isstead of having the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 series cars pus the X SAVs.

The 2 big questions are..
1) Should BMW's be the driving performance brand or should that be new sub-brand? ?
2) Is it too late for BMW to make this change?

And when driving enthusiasts leave BMW going, where do they go (besides to older BMWs)? Those with lots of money can of course go to Porsche, Audi R8, Tesla, Nissan GTR, McLaren, Italian Exotic, etc. But what about the rest? To Toyobarus? Ford Mustang? Mazda 3?

[QC_ZHP]

If BMW is going to continue to chase big unit numbers, it needs another sub-brand like Mini or Rolls Royce to avoid brand dilution. Toyota has Lexus & Scion. GM has Chevy (performance or all-American), Buick (China), Cadillac (luxury) and GMC (trucks/SUVs). When Daimler bought Chrysler, that didn't work out too well, but they still have Smart cars and a few truck brands.

Perhaps the king of this is VW. Not only do they have Volkswagon, Audi and Porsche in their stable, but also Bentley, Skoda, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ducatti and Scania. Maybe that's too many brands, but if GM has 4 and VW has 7 (for cars) I think BMW needs more than 3, isstead of having the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 series cars pus the X SAVs.

The 2 big questions are..
1) Should BMW's be the driving performance brand or should that be new sub-brand? ?
2) Is it too late for BMW to make this change?

And when driving enthusiasts leave BMW going, where do they go (besides to older BMWs)? Those with lots of money can of course go to Porsche, Audi R8, Tesla, Nissan GTR, McLaren, Italian Exotic, etc. But what about the rest? To Toyobarus? Ford Mustang? Mazda 3?

Great post, I think you're absolutely right. If BMW wants to start targeting these other markets, they're image is going to change drastically over time. VW group's 7 brands is definitely a lot, but I say why not? They've become the largest automotive group around, manufacturing a brand for a wide variety of markets. Their footprint in the industry is enormous. I understand why BMW would want their name of things like the i3 and even x series SUV's, but the amount of series they're beginning to produce seems like a bit overkill for a company that portrays a performance image.


Edit: And since I come from a mustang background, I'll just say that I know the Mustang gets a lot of hate for its excessive popularity and cheap interior, etc., but it looks like they're getting back on the right track. The Coyote 5.0 Mustangs can really perform and even out performed the e92 M on track tests. Very affordable car with a great aftermarket community. I'm anxious to see how the new 2014+ models evolve.

[Hermes]

VW also owns Seat (Spanish brand), which are considered to basically be cheap VW's (more basic) with different badges

[kayger12]

I knew it was over for BMW when I read this article this summer. http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/habemus-papem-2013-bmw-335i-m-sport-vs-2013-cadillac-ats-36-2014-lexus-is350-f-sport-comparison-test

Among the painful things I read:

Is it possible that the BMW has the worst steering here?

The M Sport is capable, but it’s not as engaging as either opponent. It seems to say to the driver, “Here, I’ll do it.” And it does, but without the grace of the Lexus or the thrill of the Cadillac.

[ryankokesh]

That's a sentence I never hoped to hear.... :(


Sent from my iPhone

[johnrando]

I knew it was over for BMW when I read this article this summer. http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/habemus-papem-2013-bmw-335i-m-sport-vs-2013-cadillac-ats-36-2014-lexus-is350-f-sport-comparison-test

Among the painful things I read:

Is it possible that the BMW has the worst steering here?

The M Sport is capable, but it’s not as engaging as either opponent. It seems to say to the driver, “Here, I’ll do it.” And it does, but without the grace of the Lexus or the thrill of the Cadillac.

Holy cow! BMW can't match the thrill of the Cadillac????? A Cadillac. Words I would have bet my life I'd never read. But you know, good for Cadillac (not that I'd ever buy one - I have my ZHP). :)

[fredo]

I can't visualize in the same showroom a guy buying an M3 and a guy buying a minivan.

[LivesNearCostco]

And that is a problem Toyota and Honda face. They are so dominant in sensible sedans, SUVs, hybrids, econoboxes and minivans that it's hard for them to sell their brands as sporty. (Honda did have the Civic SI and Integra Type-R.) That's why the FRS is sold as a Scion and the past/future NSX is an Acura. BMW was dominating the sporty luxury car for drivers, but in their quest to increase unit sales, go mainstream, and comply with US CAFE regulations (and Euro carbon footprint taxes) they are loosing their mojo. I think their acquisition and relaunch of Mini was brilliant. Mini is fun, different, sporty, selling well, and it's okay to be FWD. It's close enough to BMW to enhance the BMW family affiliate (and help BMW with fleet average fuel economy) but separate enough not to dilute the BMW brand.

Wonder if they could acquire or build another less-sporty brand that does FWD, minivans, and/or ultra-lux cars. Or have a more sporty division that is more independent or more "pure sports car" than the M division. Not sure SUVs have to be separate.. originally would have said yes, but if Porsche and Audi can have a successful SUV, then BMW sure can.

One thing that puzzles me -- how does Subaru simultaneously do well in "practical all-wheel drive wagons for dog lovers and rural families" and in the Boost Buggy market?

[az3579]

One thing that puzzles me -- how does Subaru simultaneously do well in "practical all-wheel drive wagons for dog lovers and rural families" and in the Boost Buggy market?

Well, the key thing to understand is that just because a car has boost, that doesn't necessarily mean that the owner/driver cares. This applies to the A to B drivers that don't really care about the driving experience.

For the wagon lovers, well... most of Subaru's models are available with AWD, so those who want an AWD wagon and not have to pay through the nose can get one. For the Boost lovers, they have access to a car that is incredibly quick and can be made faster than most high-performance cars for less money than a brand new premium brand car, like a BMW 335i for example.

As far as these niches go, Subaru's got this one locked down.

[cakM3]

Because BMW has gone full retard:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/16/bmw-1-series-225i-active-tourer-spy-shots/

Looks to me like BMW copied Honda this time around.....I'll just stick to the E46 chassis myself....

[kayger12]

One thing that puzzles me -- how does Subaru simultaneously do well in "practical all-wheel drive wagons for dog lovers and rural families" and in the Boost Buggy market?

Because in the big picture they don't. They only move about 400k units a year, iirc.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Hermes]

^also, you have to remember how the huge Japanese conglomerates work.

Subaru - ¥1.389billion

Fuji Heavy Industries (parent corp) ¥1.913 trillion

(Figures are gross revenue FYE 2012, NOT net profit)

Auto division makes up less than 1% of parent company

Can you tell I used to be a stock broker?

[echo46]

Unfortunately, as they said on Top Gear, we are all going to be driving Chinese cars very very soon:(

[zhpnsnv]

regarding the FWD comments - I had a MINI that ran circles around many RWD cars on the track, where it actually matters. Still, I prefer RWD, but it's not the end of the world.

[Whitexi]

Not sure whats worse, that or this? They already had terrible sales from the 5gt and it backfired since customers jumped to other brands for a wagon and some from a 7 series to this since it cost about the same.




http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/04/lead1bmw550igtreview2010.jpg

[JKO_ZHP]

regarding the FWD comments - I had a MINI that ran circles around many RWD cars on the track, where it actually matters. Still, I prefer RWD, but it's not the end of the world.

The point isn't about FWD itself, it's about BMW making FWD cars. Mini was always catering to that market, and BMW explicitly said they would not make any FWD cars. (see post #20) Those are real BMW creations as far as I know, they're not fan-made.

For BMW to go into that market means only one thing, they're after money, not making the ultimate driving machine anymore. I don't think I even hear or see that slogan on their commercials now.

[Avetiso]

The market is changing. I know it's disappointing, but anyone that actually thinks BMW is going to remain an enthusiast brand is delusional. BMW or not, it's a large company. Once you are doing growing vertically, you diversify. BMW's share in the luxury/performance sector of cars isn't going to grow any larger. They would be stupid not to expand their production line to include larger markets.

Up for debate is whether they should do it under the BMW brand. I wouldn't, but that's their mistake to make and weather.

BMW is a multinational corporation. It's always been about the money. If they broke even on the ///M lineup, the ///M lineup wouldn't exist. It's that simple.

[JKO_ZHP]

The market is changing. I know it's disappointing, but anyone that actually thinks BMW is going to remain an enthusiast brand is delusional. BMW or not, it's a large company. Once you are doing growing vertically, you diversify. BMW's share in the luxury/performance sector of cars isn't going to grow any larger. They would be stupid not to expand their production line to include larger markets.

Up for debate is whether they should do it under the BMW brand. I wouldn't, but that's their mistake to make and weather.

BMW is a multinational corporation. It's always been about the money. If they broke even on the ///M lineup, the ///M lineup wouldn't exist. It's that simple.

It has NOT always been about the money.
It's a big factor and it's easy to assume that sales and profit are all that matters to the execs but believe it or not, there are some that care as much about building a car that the customer wants as much as sales.
This book as well as the author offer an example/insight - http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591846226

In fact, Mr. Lutz cares more about building cars that people want than money. Because he's smart enough to understand that the former will lead to the latter, but not if you go straight for the latter.

As a result, GM is back from bankruptcy partly because of Mr. Lutz' philosophy.

Side note: He served as the Executive VP of Sales at BMW for a few years and helped develop the 3-series.

[Avetiso]

It has NOT always been about the money.
It's a big factor and it's easy to assume that sales and profit are all that matters to the execs but believe it or not, there are some that care as much about building a car that the customer wants as much as sales.
This book as well as the author offer an example/insight - http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591846226

In fact, Mr. Lutz cares more about building cars that people want than money. Because he's smart enough to understand that the former will lead to the latter, but not if you go straight for the latter.

As a result, GM is back from bankruptcy partly because of Mr. Lutz' philosophy.

Side note: He served as the Executive VP of Sales at BMW for a few years and helped develop the 3-series.

Yes, but the former will never exist without the latter. Lutz would not build/design cars if no-one bought them. Without profit, nothing happens. Sure, building cars people want is a valiant effort, but what's the driving factor behind doing that? Money.

Besides, this isn't just car companies. Once you are competitive in a market, you diversify. This is true for almost every market in existence. I'm not sure why people are surprised, it's going to happen.

Just look at GE.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

[Fried_Chicken]

The point isn't about FWD itself, it's about BMW making FWD cars. Mini was always catering to that market, and BMW explicitly said they would not make any FWD cars. (see post #20) Those are real BMW creations as far as I know, they're not fan-made.

For BMW to go into that market means only one thing, they're after money, not making the ultimate driving machine anymore. I don't think I even hear or see that slogan on their commercials now.

They've retired the "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan in favor of "Joy is BMW" or some similar crap.
At first I didn't mind. I like the ZHP because it's more than just a sports car. it has the electric seats with the memory function,
the outside temperature that warns me of ice, the amazing traction control that keeps me out of trouble, the great sound system,
the quietness at speed, etc. When everything comes together I feel real joy :D

I did not, however, think that "Joy is BMW" would mean mini-vans. *BARF*

[kayger12]

It has NOT always been about the money.
It's a big factor and it's easy to assume that sales and profit are all that matters to the execs but believe it or not, there are some that care as much about building a car that the customer wants as much as sales.
This book as well as the author offer an example/insight - http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591846226

In fact, Mr. Lutz cares more about building cars that people want than money. Because he's smart enough to understand that the former will lead to the latter, but not if you go straight for the latter.

As a result, GM is back from bankruptcy partly because of Mr. Lutz' philosophy.

Side note: He served as the Executive VP of Sales at BMW for a few years and helped develop the 3-series.

Agree to disagree. It's a business, not a service to the car enthusiast community. Of course car manufacturers are trying to make cars that people want. They all are. And why? Because money. It's simply a matter of which group's wants they are trying to meet. GM is back from bankruptcy because they targeted and are crushing the market in China. They're not killing it here or in Europe.

For BMW it has certainly always been about money. The 2002 came into existence not because they wanted to make car enthusiasts happy, but because they were taking a radical step to differentiate themselves from the other auto manufacturers that were killing them. They saw a hole in the market and pursued a course of action that they hoped would make them relevant. It was a genius move and it worked.

Mazda, a car company that is largely irrelevant and has relatively small market share (just like BMW pre-2002) is trying to pursue the same path by changing direction towards fun-to-drive, premium vehicles (those are Mazda's stated intentions, not my interpretation). The Mazda 6 and CX-5 were the first big steps in that direction. There is no doubt in my mind that they are trying to emulate what BMW did years ago (and undoubtedly recognize that there is increasing vacancy in that market ).

BMW has played out the ultimate driving machine market and is now trying to expand their market share by making their cars more vanilla so that they appeal to a larger market.

Because money.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[az3579]

It has NOT always been about the money.
It's a big factor and it's easy to assume that sales and profit are all that matters to the execs but believe it or not, there are some that care as much about building a car that the customer wants as much as sales.
This book as well as the author offer an example/insight - http://www.amazon.com/Car-Guys-vs-Bean-Counters/dp/1591846226

In fact, Mr. Lutz cares more about building cars that people want than money. Because he's smart enough to understand that the former will lead to the latter, but not if you go straight for the latter.

As a result, GM is back from bankruptcy partly because of Mr. Lutz' philosophy.

Side note: He served as the Executive VP of Sales at BMW for a few years and helped develop the 3-series.

Yes, BMW is starting to build cars that people want instead of pleasing the enthusiasts. The problem with this is that the enthusiast market is so small now compared to the mainstream market that the mainstream greatly outweighs the enthusiasts, hence why they are listening to the mainstream folks instead of us that care what the car drives like. So, they are actually building what people want. The trouble is, mostly what people want is what BMW is building for them now and in the future.

It's a sad reality that people don't care too much as a whole about the driving dynamics as they care about luxury and refinement. They just don't realize that their lack of desire for driving dynamics is making the drive suffer so they can have more toys. There used to be a time when BMW could build something that was fun to drive as well as refined, but now that slider scale is more on the luxury side than on the fun side.

BMW still tries to appeal to the enthusiasts to some degree though. Look at the F80/F82 M3/M4; they finally made them weigh around what our ZHPs weigh but with a lot more power. That is an enthusiast-based offering in its entirety; the mainstream doesn't care about weight, yet they took the time to make something awesome just for us. Granted, a lot of the mainstream will still buy it because they're badge wearers, but that doesn't matter because the enthusiast still wins. Look at the M235i; they're going to offer an LSD, something BMW stopped doing well over a decade ago in its lower-end cars. This is a hint that perhaps they're going to still cater to us enthusiasts to some degree, which is a ray of hope.

[danewilson77]

Agree to disagree. It's a business, not a service to the car enthusiast community. Of course car manufacturers are trying to make cars that people want. They all are. And why? Because money. It's simply a matter of which group's wants they are trying to meet. GM is back from bankruptcy because they targeted and are crushing the market in China. They're not killing it here or in Europe.

For BMW it has certainly always been about money. The 2002 came into existence not because they wanted to make car enthusiasts happy, but because they were taking a radical step to differentiate themselves from the other auto manufacturers that were killing them. They saw a hole in the market and pursued a course of action that they hoped would make them relevant. It was a genius move and it worked.

Mazda, a car company that is largely irrelevant and has relatively small market share (just like BMW pre-2002) is trying to pursue the same path by changing direction towards fun-to-drive, premium vehicles (those are Mazda's stated intentions, not my interpretation). The Mazda 6 and CX-5 were the first big steps in that direction. There is no doubt in my mind that they are trying to emulate what BMW did years ago (and undoubtedly recognize that there is increasing vacancy in that market ).

BMW has played out the ultimate driving machine market and is now trying to expand their market share by making their cars more vanilla so that they appeal to a larger market.

Because money.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

This

It's not a toy, it's a Droid > Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[kayger12]

Look at the F80/F82 M3/M4; they finally made them weigh around what our ZHPs weigh but with a lot more power. That is an enthusiast-based offering in its entirety; the mainstream doesn't care about weight, yet they took the time to make something awesome just for us. Granted, a lot of the mainstream will still buy it because they're badge wearers, but that doesn't matter because the enthusiast still wins. Look at the M235i; they're going to offer an LSD, something BMW stopped doing well over a decade ago in its lower-end cars. This is a hint that perhaps they're going to still cater to us enthusiasts to some degree, which is a ray of hope.

I think the weight savings had very little to do with enthusiasts and everything to do with meeting the CAFE standards.

If it gets so bad that they feel the need to stop putting LSDs in M cars, I'd imagine they'd just stop making M cars.

[az3579]

I think the weight savings had very little to do with enthusiasts and everything to do with meeting the CAFE standards.


Thanks for ruining it for me. :(

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[kayger12]

:rofl

[Fried_Chicken]

This goes back to my point earlier,
the ZHP was the holy-grail for BMW, and in general for trends in the industry (MT, hydraulic steering, RWD, etc.)

I don't think another ZHP exists on the market today from any manufacturer.

[LivesNearCostco]

Does the Toyoburu FRS/BRZ have a LSD? Does it have hydraulic steering?


This goes back to my point earlier,
the ZHP was the holy-grail for BMW, and in general for trends in the industry (MT, hydraulic steering, RWD, etc.)

I don't think another ZHP exists on the market today from any manufacturer.

[johnrando]

Good discussion. Bottom line for me is that if you hang your hat on being 'The Ultimate Driving Machine', market to enthusiasts, and have throughout much of your history built cars to that end, then that's what you should deliver or change your branding.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

[LivesNearCostco]

Agree with JR... BMW should stick to their "Ultimate Driving Machine" heritage, but it also makes business sense that they need to appeal to the mainstream if they want to continue expanding their sales. The mainstream market is much bigger than the enthusiast market, and BMW is much bigger in cars than Subaru, Mitsubishi, or Mazda (thanks for posting the numbers). So winning some more enthusiast customers might be a significant win for Subaru/Mitsu/Mazda, but a drop in the bucket to today's BMW. (Still doesn't explain how Toyota did the FRS, or maybe that exactly explains why Toyota did it as a joint venture with Subaru and branded it a Scion.) Another challenge is the BMW brand is already so big with mainstream lux drivers today.

If you were Norbert Reithofer, would you...
1) Morph BMW into a mainstream brand and build/acquire a sub-brand for enthusiasts?
2) Turn BMW back towards enthusiasts and build/acquire another brand for mainstream?
3) Just let the M-division keep the enthusiasts happy, should be enough
4) Keep BMW a pure enthusiast brand, knowing BMW will sell fewer cars
5) Abandon the enthusiast market
6) Retire early and enjoy my collection of cars

BTW on Mazda, they boast in automotive mags that any weekend more people are racing Mazdas than any other car. But I think most of those are Miatas and some RX-7/RX-8 cars. Does Mazda need a new replacement for the Miata, or is there MazdaSpeed 3 good enough?

[Vas]

Does the Toyoburu FRS/BRZ have a LSD? Does it have hydraulic steering?

Both of these items exist on the brz/frs. The new wrx will have electric not hydraulic.

Anyway I think an lsd should be standard and hydraulic steering should still exist.

[BRGcoopahS]

I could care less as long as they still build sporty cars.

Like the 2 series, the m3/4, m5/6, even the i8.

[BavarianZHP]

BMW definitely is evolving its image. I still remember the day when they announced the massive line-up change from NA engines. Gone are the purist qualities and in with the creature comforts and docility. Bigger, clunkier cars. No dipsticks, temp gauges. Harder to DIY... It's funny that we find ourselves loathing the newer technology, the improvements in safety, the more efficient designs, the newer and on paper/in-theory 'better' more expensive cars. It's this feeling that makes the ZHP so special.

[Hermes]

The only new car I would even consider buying at this time is the Alfa Romeo 4C... and it has manual steering!

[echo46]

How about the Audi R8 V10 Plus. I would love to give it a drive. I find Audis very solid and extremely capable but then again not a BMW e46 M3 ZCP:)

[Hermes]

I'll pass on the R8, I don't like the styling of it

[az3579]

I think it's hilarious how many enthusiasts wouldn't buy a new BMW for trivial things like not having an LSD and electric steering. You can put an LSD in if you really need it, but the vast majority of people don't need it. Offering it as an option is the way to go, as they're doing with the M235i. Electric power steering really isn't that bad. Besides, it gets better with every revision. Just wait till you see the F8x M3/M4.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[JKO_ZHP]

I can't remember if I mentioned this earlier but the head of the M division publicly announced that they are interested in and are currently working on developing an M8 supercar. It will cost more than a couple Audi R8's but the reason behind its creation will be to show that BMW is "still in the game."

However the head honcho has the last say and has expressed how he does not like the idea. And he can kill it at the very last second if he wanted to.

This kind of shows me how BMW is sort of internally conflicted....to be honest I don't know what to make of the whole situation/controversy surrounding their direction and future in general but for now, I'm glad I have my ZHP. Less and less E46s are on the streets now in general and to have a good example of one (at least IMO) when it's taken over the place of the E36 is a good feeling. 'Cause I can openly admit I'm damn proud to have the car I have right now, as is. :headbang

[Hermes]

^Likely something along the lines of the Vision GT

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW-Vision-Gran-Turismo-2013-GT-6-Video-Trailer-PS3-Playstation-3.jpg

But for double the price of the R8 that's Ferrari/Lambo/Aston territory, it better be good

I'm assuming if a concept is to be shown publicly it will likely be either in March at Geneva, April at Dubai, or May at Villa d'Este. I'm guessing it will blend i8 tech with stuff from the M1 Homáge from 2008

[Avetiso]

^Likely something along the lines of the Vision GT

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW-Vision-Gran-Turismo-2013-GT-6-Video-Trailer-PS3-Playstation-3.jpg

But for double the price of the R8 that's Ferrari/Lambo/Aston territory, it better be good

:drool I bet this car could make Putin spill the beans. It looks vicious.

[az3579]

BMW can absolutely pull off a supercar. They're getting into using carbon fiber even on the lower end models now (M3/M4), and since most supercars are heavily clad with carbon fiber, that gives BMW a leg up already. Plus, there's not a single M car that isn't fun as hell to drive, and we already know BMW is capable of making powerplants that produce some serious juice.

The thing is, it wouldn't benefit them much to make one, unless they want to pull a stunt like Toyota did with the LF-A (to do it just to do it). When you think of supercar, you think of Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. etc., you don't think of BMW. Ferrari = ultimate exotica, BMW = luxury - this is how it's perceived in peoples' minds. If they're gonna blow that kind of cash, they're going with the prestigious Ferrari.

[alexandre]

BMW can absolutely pull off a supercar. They're getting into using carbon fiber even on the lower end models now (M3/M4), and since most supercars are heavily clad with carbon fiber, that gives BMW a leg up already. Plus, there's not a single M car that isn't fun as hell to drive, and we already know BMW is capable of making powerplants that produce some serious juice.

The thing is, it wouldn't benefit them much to make one, unless they want to pull a stunt like Toyota did with the LF-A (to do it just to do it). When you think of supercar, you think of Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. etc., you don't think of BMW. Ferrari = ultimate exotica, BMW = luxury - this is how it's perceived in peoples' minds. If they're gonna blow that kind of cash, they're going with the prestigious Ferrari.

Is the R8 considered a supercar? If BMW was to target that kind of competition, I'm sure they'd make a killing.


iP4S + TT2

[az3579]

Is the R8 considered a supercar? If BMW was to target that kind of competition, I'm sure they'd make a killing.


iP4S + TT2

Not at the price point that was previously mentioned... (twice the cost of a R8)

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[alexandre]

Not at the price point that was previously mentioned... (twice the cost of a R8)

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:facepalm shoulda read the last few posts of the thread LOL


iP4S + TT2

[Hermes]

Is the R8 considered a supercar? If BMW was to target that kind of competition, I'm sure they'd make a killing.


iP4S + TT2

R8 is considered a bargain supercar, in the same boat as the 911 and the old NSX. New NSX will likely be in the $110k range so it once again will fall in the bargain supercar level

Admittedly, there are 911's higher in the price range but I'm referring to the lower end models


Lower priced ($100-500k) mid-engine supercars on the market ATM:

R8 - $119k (V8 version)
R8 - $165k (V10 version)
Gallardo - $181k
Aventador - $397k
458 - $233k
MP4-12C - $239k
S7 - $499k

[Avetiso]

:facepalm shoulda read the last few posts of the thread LOL


iP4S + TT2

Kinda OT, but I sent you a pm a few days ago... go read it. :rofl

T-Mobile Note 3
Jedi Elite v5 ROM

[BRGcoopahS]

The i8 is their super car. Maybe not in terms of super car performance, but in terms of technology and price. Great gas mileage, lightweight, more than good enough performance, (0-60 in 4 sec is still fast) CFRP shell, and a price that is certainly for the rich, but nowhere near as expensive as a Ferrari or lambo, all in a package that looks 10 years ahead of its time.

Bmw is mass marketing their cars sure, but they are still catering to the car guys. I'm sure the M235i and m3/4 will be exceptional cars. If you're looking for a sporty BMW like those cars, then what does it matter about some fwd hatch they are going to make? It becomes a real problem when they start making their actual sporty cars fwd. Atleast bmw isn't making a sporty low priced coupe model that's fwd. Aka the CLA.

[Mike2003ZHP]

It's ugly, but if there are going to be minivans, then why not a BMW minivan?

[johnrando]

The i8 is their super car. Maybe not in terms of super car performance, but in terms of technology and price. Great gas mileage, lightweight, more than good enough performance, (0-60 in 4 sec is still fast) CFRP shell, and a price that is certainly for the rich, but nowhere near as expensive as a Ferrari or lambo, all in a package that looks 10 years ahead of its time.

Bmw is mass marketing their cars sure, but they are still catering to the car guys. I'm sure the M235i and m3/4 will be exceptional cars. If you're looking for a sporty BMW like those cars, then what does it matter about some fwd hatch they are going to make? It becomes a real problem when they start making their actual sporty cars fwd. Atleast bmw isn't making a sporty low priced coupe model that's fwd. Aka the CLA.

Yeah that thing is awful!

[az3579]

Atleast bmw isn't making a sporty low priced coupe model that's fwd. Aka the CLA.

Don't you worry, it's coming.
The 1 series is rumored to be FWD in the future.

[Fried_Chicken]

It's ugly, but if there are going to be minivans, then why not a BMW minivan?

This is a perfectly rational argument.
It's the irrational side of me that despises the idea.

[mimalmo]

It may be rational but it's disgusting. When you start being "everything to every car buyer", you become Toyota.

[328ioc]

It may be rational but it's disgusting. When you start being "everything to every car buyer", you become Toyota.

Best description I have seen yet.

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[LivesNearCostco]

That's why our minivan is... a Toyota