Cranks but no start

[brewer90]

We just got back from out of town for Thanksgiving and my ZHP was in the garage and temps were moderate. I got in to back it out of the garage and it just cranked but never fired. I read the codes and all are clear. Checked the fuel pump fuses (#54 and then one under the hood) and they are fine plus I smell gas after cranking. I replaced the fuel filter last month. Spark plugs are only about 6 months old. Battery is 3 months old.

I've had a bit a rough idle when first started when temps are in the 40s but it smooths out once warm and doesn't happen again when started warm. It's been running fine other than that.

Any tips on where to start? Guess I'll go check the air filter and make sure a rat didn't build a home in it while I was gone.

[kayger12]

How old is the fuel pump?


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[brewer90]

May 2006 - ie original. 76k on the car.

[kayger12]

May 2006 - ie original. 76k on the car.

Man, that's a little early for a fuel pump failure but not unheard of.

When you turn the key to position 2 can you hear the fuel pump?


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[echo46]

Yes check the fuel pump and sender. Then check the fuel pressure at the ril.

[brewer90]

I was hearing something kick on and then shut off after a few seconds. I yanked the seat and the fuel pump cover to make sure and it is kicking on.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge so I guess that is my next step.

[echo46]

Is the pump functioning? Maybe filter clogged? Check the fuel pressure.

[kayger12]

I was hearing something kick on and then shut off after a few seconds. I yanked the seat and the fuel pump cover to make sure and it is kicking on.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge so I guess that is my next step.

Hmm. If fuel is good (assuming you're good at the rail) I'd start looking at air then. ICV and MAF.

On a side note, what's your vanos situation?


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[Smolck]

One sure fire thing that can cause the car not to start up besides the fuel pump is a bad crank sensor. If it fails, the car will NOT start. And yes, they can be intermittent.

[danewilson77]

One sure fire thing that can cause the car not to start up besides the fuel pump is a bad crank sensor. If it fails, the car will NOT start. And yes, they can be intermittent.

Good point.

Any codes?

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[kayger12]

One sure fire thing that can cause the car not to start up besides the fuel pump is a bad crank sensor. If it fails, the car will NOT start. And yes, they can be intermittent.

Knew I was missing something.

Good call.

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[echo46]

Yes, yes yes. Could be the crank sensor.

[Smolck]

Knew I was missing something.

Good call.

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I only mention it because it is fresh in my mind. Just last week I had to deal with the same issue. Only I had installed a brand new sensor, but it wasn't OEM and failed in 5 (count em, FIVE) days!

[brewer90]

Looks like Autozone loans out a fuel pump diagnostics kit so I'll swing by there.

Vanos seals are original. No infamous rattle though. Would that cause a no start situation though?

Also no codes are being thrown.

[kayger12]

Looks like Autozone loans out a fuel pump diagnostics kit so I'll swing by there.

Vanos seals are original. No infamous rattle though. Would that cause a no start situation though?

Also no codes are being thrown.

I've read people having cold start issues with bad vanos seals, but I'd think if yours were that bad you'd be stalling at stop signs and whatnot.

Honestly, I like Smolck's suggestion the best at this point. Fully explains your scenario and it's a fairly common failure item.


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[Smolck]

Bad VANOS seals wouldn't cause your car not to start, no matter how bad they were worn. I have never seen a "weak" fuel pump that didn't allow the car to start either. May miss, kick, and sputter, but they usually run. All you have to do is pull the middle engine cover off and press the fuel pressure release valve, it will likely throw fuel ALL OVER and that is enough to make the car run.

Have you tried things like disconnecting your MAF and DISA to try and isolate them as possible issues? (though again, I have never seen a DISA so bad it didnt allow the car to start)

Cold start issues with regard to VANOS was really only ever an issue on the M52tu motor. My old 323 was one of them. New VANOS cleaned that right up.

[kayger12]

I only mention it because it is fresh in my mind. Just last week I had to deal with the same issue. Only I had installed a brand new sensor, but it wasn't OEM and failed in 5 (count em, FIVE) days!

Geez. That's unreal.

I know people recommend OEM sensors, but I didn't think aftermarket were that bad. That's nuts.

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[Smolck]

Geez. That's unreal.

I know people recommend OEM sensors, but I didn't think aftermarket were that bad. That's nuts.

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Not to derail the thread but I also bought BWD (also from advance) intake and exhaust cam sensors. The intake cam sensor failed the same time as the crank sensor. I don't have to tell you the exhaust sensor went back too!

[brewer90]

Don't you get a code when the camshaft sensor goes tango uniform?

[kayger12]

Not to derail the thread but I also bought BWD (also from advance) intake and exhaust cam sensors. The intake cam sensor failed the same time as the crank sensor. I don't have to tell you the exhaust sensor went back too!

Wow. I've been tempted to try aftermarket, but I'll certainly stick with OEM now.

Great info.


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[Smolck]

Don't you get a code when the camshaft sensor goes tango uniform?

Usually, yes. Mine were robbing me of fuel mileage though without throwing a code. Went from 18,7 to 21.2mpg's with new cam and crank sensors. Remember, cam sensors deal with when fuel is injected, crank deals with spark timing. So if they go bad, they can and do cause problems. My car has 201k miles and it was time for new ones.

[Vas]

Isn't the car supposed to default to using the cam position sensor if the crank one goes bad ? This was the case st least with my nissans.

[Smolck]

Isn't the car supposed to default to using the cam position sensor if the crank one goes bad ? This was the case st least with my nissans.

No. Because on the E46, the crank sensor controls spark timing only. Cam sensors control fuel timing only. They work together or not at all. Because the crank sensor has to tell the DME where the crankshaft is in its rotation (and thereby knowing which portion of the stroke each cylinder is at, exhaust, intake, compression, etc) if it gets no reading the car has no idea when to fire the spark plugs and it will NOT start.

[Vas]

Well that sucks.

[Smolck]

Well that sucks.

Agreed. Kinda scary that one little sensor can leave you high and dry. And while failure on them isn't super common, I would tell anyone who travels great distances to just replace them every 100k miles. They only cost $60 and it is a very easy DIY.

[kayger12]

Agreed. Kinda scary that one little sensor can leave you high and dry. And while failure on them isn't super common, I would tell anyone who travels great distances to just replace them every 100k miles. They only cost $60 and it is a very easy DIY.

Good point. Adding this to my 100k mile maintenance along with the fuel pump. Not worth getting stranded far from home over an easy and relatively cheap DIY.

[johnrando]

Did you try jumping the car? My car has done the "crank no start" thing and it's the battery. You could have a slow parasitic drain, like the one caused by the FSR.

[brewer90]

Fuel pressure is over 50 psi and still no codes.

I haven't tried to jump it. I didn't think about the battery being low since it is only a couple of months old and the car was cranking just fine. I'll give that a shot next before I start throwing parts at it - starting with the crank sensor.

The highs are in the 70s/80s for the next few days so at least I'll have some good commuting weather on the motorcycle. It's supposed to be cold and wet on Friday so I'll send it to the local indy if I can't get it going here in the next few days.

[LivesNearCostco]

Brewer90: Agree a jump start or a few hours on a battery charger would be a good test, just in case the fresh battery got drained. If you have a MT and 2 assistants and don't live on a hill (or do live on a hill and car happens to be pointing downhill) you could also try a push start to rule out battery and starter issues.

Smolk: Is the suggested maintenance item just the crank position sensor or also the 2 camshaft position sensors? So a failed camshaft PS affects timing, hurts fuel consumption and throws a code but won't prevent start, while a failed crank PS prevents start, correct? My car is over 180K miles now so thinking this could be good PM.
And if they fail can I just call them the crankshaft POS and camshaft POS? :-)

[Smolck]

Smolk: Is the suggested maintenance item just the crank position sensor or also the 2 camshaft position sensors? So a failed camshaft PS affects timing, hurts fuel consumption and throws a code but won't prevent start, while a failed crank PS prevents start, correct? My car is over 180K miles now so thinking this could be good PM.
And if they fail can I just call them the crankshaft POS and camshaft POS? :-)

In my case, I did all three (2 cam, 1 crank). Typically, they will fail with codes. If the cam sensors go bad and throw a code your car will lose power and run like garbage (but it USUALLY will run). The crank sensor usually throws a code too and yes, if it dies, you are stuck.

In my case, ALL THREE sensors on my 2004 ZHP had 201k miles on them and they were all original. I had a nagging fuel economy issue that coils, plugs, injectors, fuel pump, fuel filter and 02 sensors wouldn't solve. Also a general lack of OOMPH through the high RPM range. So I decided to change the only other things related to fuel and timing was the sensors. I replaced them and until the non-OE crap sensors failed, my car was alive again. It gained 3mpg's (according to the OBD avg mpg display) and revved through from 5000-6700rpm much more readily. I had NO codes for any of them (until the new, chinese crapola ones failed on me 5 days after installing them that is) and did it as a "hey, it may fix it, may not but at 200k miles, what can it hurt" kind of thing.

And yes, if you buy the non-OE ones from China you can call them the POS sensors.


Good point. Adding this to my 100k mile maintenance along with the fuel pump. Not worth getting stranded far from home over an easy and relatively cheap DIY.

Yea, we had a "when did you fuel pump die" thread on the Fest and it was overwhelming the number of failures on the fuel pumps between 100k and 150k. Mine left me stranded on Easter Sunday a year ago at the store with 146k on the clock and I had just placed my order for a new pump! And of course, I had left my cell phone at home.

[brewer90]

I charged the battery overnight on my tender and it is in the green. I did a load test while cranking and that is in the green too but the car still won't fire. I gave it full throttle on the last crank and there was a hint she wanted to come to life but I had to get to work so left it. I'll give it one more shot with full throttle when I get home and then it is parts time I guess.

Is there a way to ohm out the sensors and see if they are in spec are not? I hate just throwing parts at a problem.

[danewilson77]

Spark, Air, and fuel are needed for a start.

I want to say fuel, but you verified 50 psi at the rail.

Maybe the crank sensor as mentioned?

Sent from my S4 > Mason, OH

[Smolck]

Is there a way to ohm out the sensors and see if they are in spec are not? I hate just throwing parts at a problem.

Unfortunately I do not know how to test it myself. Here is the good news, if you bought one from Advance Auto Parts, you can buy it online and do in store pickup. This allows you to use some of the 30% promo codes. Then you end up paying about $35 for the crank sensor. Then put it on your car and see if it starts. If it does, order an OEM sensor and take the chinese made crap one back.

[brewer90]

She's running now which is good. The bad is I don't know what was wrong.

I mentioned there was a hint of running this morning with full throttle. So when I got home I just floored the gas and kept cranking for about 10 secs and she sputtered to life. Now everything is back to normal. She starts up immediately with the turn of the key, idles fine and pulls like always. I drove for 30 mins and came back and scanned for codes and there was nothing. I'm curious to see what happens overnight.

Maybe the check valve in the fuel pump stuck open and allowed all the gas to drain back. Or perhaps I have a leaky injector. Then again yesterday I had 50psi at the rail and immediately tried to start it and it didn't fire. I'm going to go ahead and replace the fuel pump before we take off for Christmas. We'll be out of town for five days so it will be sitting again. If it repeats I'll pull the injectors and check for leakage. Might as well have a crank sensor handy too.

Thanks for all of your tips. It's good to know this place has your back when there is a problem.

[Smolck]

Well, at least you got it running. I absolutely hate it when a car does something like this and leaves you with more questions than answers. Especially if you are going out of town. Didn't see if you changed the fuel filter or not, but not a bad idea to replace it the same time as the pump.

[LivesNearCostco]

Yes that absolutely drives me crazy too! Right now about every 20 starts, my starter makes weird noises without turning the engine over. It always tarts again on the next try (so far--cross fingers). I am guessing it's a missing tool on whatever the starter uses to push its gear out to the flywheel, or an intermittent solenoid problem. Kind of wish it would be consistent, though if it just stopped working altogether, that would be inconvenient. Have reman starter in the garage, waiting to be installed.

[brewer90]

I manage a group of engineers that troubleshoots semiconductor capital equipment and always drive them for a root cause even when stuff magically fixes itself. This is driving me crazy too not knowing what the problem is.

Fuel filter is about a month old.

[MrMaico]

Did you by chance just start the car briefly the last time it had ran without letting the engine get warmed up a bit? I've had it happen to me a couple of times when I did that and the next time I started it it ran rough for a bit. After some searching I found posts from people that happened to but theirs wouldn't even start the next time. Either the rich start circuit ends up fouling the plugs or I've also read speculation that the excess fuel can cause a loss of compression and by squirting a bit of oil into each cylinder "sealed" the rings again and the car started right up.

IIRC after it had happened to me I got a misfire code for a couple of the cylinders. I never had it cause a no start though, it just ran rough briefly and cleared out with a bit of throttle. I assume that was caused by fouled plugs.

Barry

[brewer90]

Yes. I just started it up to drive into the garage and then shut it off so it never got close to warming up. I'll make sure it is warmed up before I park for it for Christmas here in a few weeks and see if the problem repeats itself.

Thanks for the info.

[MrMaico]

Yes. I just started it up to drive into the garage and then shut it off so it never got close to warming up. I'll make sure it is warmed up before I park for it for Christmas here in a few weeks and see if the problem repeats itself.

Thanks for the info.

I'll bet that's all it was. For me at least, it doesn't need to be fully warmed up before shutting it down to avoid the problem. Maybe 5 minutes or so is good. I'll usually rev it a bit to help clear out the excess fuel before I shut it off. Hasn't happened again since I started doing it this way.

Barry

[brewer90]

I followed Barry's advice and parked the car after it was warmed up. It sat for five days which is the exact number of days it sat over Thanksgiving when I first had the no start problem. She fired right up on the first try this morning so I guess that was the problem.

[ELCID86]

Good news.

[danewilson77]

Good news.

+1

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[Stewbie]

Did you by chance just start the car briefly the last time it had ran without letting the engine get warmed up a bit? I've had it happen to me a couple of times when I did that and the next time I started it it ran rough for a bit.

I've experienced this, and there's a thread on here somewhere where others have reported the same thing. Started it and pulled it out of the garage to wash it. Pulled it back in after it was clean. Ran the engine about 20 to 30 seconds each way. The next morning it started, but sounded rough for the first 30 to 60 seconds. Now, I always let it run for at least 1 minute before shutting it off. Never had the problem again.

[LivesNearCostco]

I can't believe I called my ZHP a tart... and I meant the starter was missing a tooth, not a tool! In any case I did replace the starter a few weeks ago and that seems to have eliminated my sporadic starting (tarting!) problem.

As for Barry's suggestion, my car did run rough yesterday for a few seconds after starting up, after sitting for 2 days. But I think I did run it briefly and shut it down before letting it get warmed up.


Yes that absolutely drives me crazy too! Right now about every 20 starts, my starter makes weird noises without turning the engine over. It always tarts again on the next try (so far--cross fingers). I am guessing it's a missing tool on whatever the starter uses to push its gear out to the flywheel, or an intermittent solenoid problem.

[MrMaico]

I followed Barry's advice and parked the car after it was warmed up. It sat for five days which is the exact number of days it sat over Thanksgiving when I first had the no start problem. She fired right up on the first try this morning so I guess that was the problem.

Good to hear!

Barry

[Vas]

Had the exact same thing happen with my wife's zhp. Moved it in the driveway and then the next morning it wouldn't start. Just cranked over and over. Finally after trying again, it started right up. Drives fine and starts without any issues now.